Road Maps for Texas Local Agencies
A podcast featuring hot mix asphalt expertise and information for Texas local agencies. Presented by the Texas Asphalt Pavement Association and hosted by asphalt pavement industry veteran Larry Peirce. Stay flexible!
Road Maps for Texas Local Agencies
The 6 Steps to Successful Asphalt Pavement Project Scoping & Development
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Texas roads can take a real beating. Growing communities, heavier truck traffic, and unforgiving summers put real demands on asphalt pavement, and the projects that hold up aren't just well-built—they're well-planned. See the six steps to successfully develop and scope your next asphalt pavement project in our latest episode of Road Maps for Texas Local Agencies.
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#txapa, #texasasphaltpavementassociation, #texasroads, #texasroadways, #asphalt, #asphaltpavement, #asphalteducation, #asphaltresources, #projectdevelopment, #projectscoping, #pavementprojectscoping, #heatrelatedsafety
Welcome to Roadmaps, the podcast for Texas local agencies and the firms that support them to plan, design, build, and maintain local roads. On Roadmaps, we break down design, mix types, construction, and maintenance, sharing plain-spoken, practical insights you can put to work right away. Asphalt is a flexible pavement engineered for optimum performance so your community gets stronger, safer, longer lasting roads. The roadmap's philosophy is simple. Stay flexible. Enjoy today's episode. Hello, and welcome to this episode of Roadmaps. Today we're going to be talking about project development and project scoping. Before we get going, though, I'd like to introduce Dennis Turner. Dennis is our East Texas regional director. He joined Tech Sappa around the first of the year. He might clarify that if I'm mistaken, but Dennis, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?
SPEAKER_01All right, thank you. Thank you, Larry. I joined Tech Sappa at the start of the year after a 20-year career in engineering and consulting, looking at everything from pavements, construction materials in the geotechnical world, uh, design, uh, construction quality, uh, forensics, and um really enjoy the opportunity to be here. Thank you, Larry.
SPEAKER_00Well, Dennis, you know we start just like everything else we do at Tech Sappa, we start everything our meetings, our partner in quality meetings, our conferences. Every day we start with a safety share. Our podcasts are no different. So today's safety share is on heat-related safety. Okay. So here in Texas, as we know, it gets really, really hot in the summer, and working outside in very hot conditions is something that you really need to pay attention to because heat takes a toll on bodies and on us as workers. And so, you know, there's a number of ways you really need to be paying attention to make sure you're protecting yourself and protecting others. Obviously, drink lots of water, you know. Uh, and this is a real big one. You need to be drinking water. You know, people are don't drink a lot of Cokes or Diet Cokes, and don't think you're gonna live off Gatorade all day. Um, you really need to be making sure you're drinking lots of water, okay? At least to have at least a cup every 20 minutes when it's really hot outside. Uh take a lot of rest breaks. Um, you know, it's really important to allow yourself to recover. Um, can you get hot, you can get fatigued very easily. Try to find shady areas. You know, a lot of times on a project you might have a designated area that you can go to to get out of the sun and get a little bit of relief. Make sure you're doing that. You know, dress for the heat, try to wear loose-fitting clothing that's breathable. If you're having to wear masks, you know, if those things get sweaty and all that kind of stuff, um, replace them with a new one that's dry and clean. And uh look out for each other. You know, not only are you going to need to be looking at yourself and make sure that you're doing okay in this heat, but look out for your co-workers as well.
SPEAKER_01And now let's get into this episode's topic.
SPEAKER_00So, Dennis, you know, when we're talking about project development and scoping, um, you know, obviously a complete bid package that's thorough and comprehensive is is the end result we're trying to get, right? But uh, and you know, that could be, you know, is it new construction, widening project, uh, is it just a mill and overlay, base reconstruction? I mean, are we trying to restore ride? Are we trying to add structure? There's so many considerations, aren't there? Uh and so when we're trying to do that, how how you know what are the things we need to be going through? What's the what what what types of things are we supposed to be looking for when we're trying to scope these things?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, the first thing, Larry, we we need to know what we're what we're trying to accomplish and knowing uh where we're trying to look for a functional repair or add structure to the pavement, but it all has to start with collecting a lot of data. Now I come from the geotech world, so a lot of time that's falls upon the geotechnical engineer to go out there and collect data. And a lot of that will be uh some visual data. We'll look at uh the pavement distresses, the conditions, do we see cracking, do we see rutting or things like that? And then uh we'll collect data, we'll actually core it um and uh try to figure out how thick the layers are, what types of layers are there. Uh is there a base there um and what condition that base is in? Um the subgrade conditions are going to be very important. Um and was that subgrade ever stabilized? Uh so those are a lot of a lot of things there that we'll uh we'll look at. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you know what one of the things that we see a lot of is, you know, and I hate you know, hate to say it, but in local agencies, they they will be kind of doing a uh kind of a sometimes a cookie cutter type uh approach, and they'll say, okay, well this pavement's in bad shape, we're gonna mill and overlay it. You know, it's an asphalt pavement. And you know, on the things you were talking about, the subgrade, the base, you know, a lot of times we don't know what's under there, or if we do, we make assumptions based on as-built plans and those types of things, and we sometimes will go and find out that some of those layer thicknesses aren't the same, um, or there's variability in the in the construction project itself.
SPEAKER_01So, I mean that's that's what's very important. We want to know if it's uniform. If we take a core in the middle of the road, it may be completely different than the edge. Now, a lot of times these roads will have a crown, and so your your layer thicknesses may vary. And one of the big things you mentioned is we do want to know what what part of this pavement structure can we reuse. Uh can we reuse the base? Do we need to uh proclaim it? Um, and then what what condition that subgrade is in to see exactly uh how deep we're gonna need to go.
SPEAKER_00You know, and a lot of times we see agencies will say, you know, we don't really have a budget to do all this investigation and uh those types of things, but it's not just about doing what we call destructive sampling, right? You had mentioned going out and pushing some borings, you know, augering through the the pavement layers and then gathering uh actual samples of the material from the subgrade and the base on top of it. But there's other things out there that can be used to uh do some good correlations that aren't destructive and you know they're not free, but they're not uh ridiculously expensive.
SPEAKER_01Uh things like falling weight deflectometer testing, for instance. Yeah, there's a variety of non-destructive techniques that we have available, and it just depends on what the level of sophistication you you're looking for. You can collect the visual distress data um um all all at once and uh use some pretty sophisticated models to uh to map that for you. Um and then you know, falling weight deflectometer is a great one. It'll get the uh the stiffness values for you. And then also ground penetrating radar is another one. It kind of helps us assess the uniformity and uh really what we're looking at in that pavement structure.
SPEAKER_00Talk about GPR a little bit. Uh you know, I mean, what is that? I think people see ground penetrating radar, but you know, what what are we trying to do with that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what we're trying to do is basically just run a uh a radar apparatus over the pavement, and then sometimes that will be uh on the front of a van, uh not actually touching the pavement. And then another one will be look like it's on a cart or a lawnmower, and you kind of roll it across the pavement. And they can be sized with different frequencies, looking at different depths and different resolutions. So it's definitely a very good tool. It can tell you the thickness variability and also look for water. Yep. So it's a very, very useful tool, especially if you have water trapped in the layer. It's it's very useful at finding that for us. Yep.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then when you've got that information and when we're taking following weight deflectometer readings, those are usually taken at intervals. So we, you know, when not to get too far into it, but I mean there's a lot to map what's in between those things. Right, right. There's network level and project level, FWD testing. Uh now, project level is probably what we're talking about when we're talking about local agencies, right? Because they're doing a specific project in their city, and so you do more project level. So let's say they're taking a reading every 100 feet or whatever that's or every blocking. Uh, you know, the the information that's got that that you get from the falling weight deflectometer, the FWD testing, can be correlated. You want to take one at least a reading or some number of of the readings you're taking with the FWD. You want to have a boring done where one of those readings is done, so that then you can look at the all the data from the FWD and see if it correlates to what you're getting. And you can reduce the amount of destructive sampling, the amount of uh setting up and having to drill holes in the pavement and that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. And so at the end of the day, you're you're wanting uh uh each layer to be identified. Uh you'll want to know uh the condition of that layer, how stiff it is, and then kind of map all those thicknesses as you go down. And once you have that and you have the uh the right data, you can uh you can kind of see exactly what your structure is and figure out how much we're gonna reuse of it.
SPEAKER_00I think on the scoping side, what about traffic? You know, that's something that I think we don't see enough emphasis placed on, okay, we're gonna reconstruct or we're gonna do some kind of a repair, reconstruction, overlay, whatever it might be on this street, on this project. And a lot of times they either use traffic data from when it was built or they uh collect some pretty quick traffic data, but I think the forecasting side of it needs to be uh you know, needs to be considered, you know, what's it look like?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. A lot of uh if you haven't updated your your design guidance for your neighborhoods or your uh uh how how you design your infrastructure and your agency, you may have some really old uh traffic data. And if you know one's surprise, in Texas, uh we have a lot of growing communities that have a lot more traffic and then a lot more truck traffic. And um, if you run through the design equations enough times, you'll realize the impact that trucks have on the structure that you need. And um that's it's a it's a big thing to have a handle on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, I've I've I've joked before, I think, even in a previous podcast, but I we we do we do know that if we didn't have heavily loaded trucks, you know, 18 wheelers, uh, we probably wouldn't be sitting here, we'd probably be out of a job if it's just cars going up and down the street. All you have is environmental impact on the uh, you know, and material uh, you know, degrading over time, oxidizing, but uh the traffic is key. So I think that's a great point that understanding what is the truck traffic going to be on this facility and looking at these different kinds of pavements and what their uses are, I mean you know, if it's a subdivision, the odds uh after it's all built, the odds that you're going to have some dramatic increase in truck traffic are pretty low. But if this is some collector arterial, particularly if it's on the outer edges of a city where this could become a distribution center or a roadway that's leading to a development of industrial facilities, uh Amazon warehouses or those types of things where you're gonna have a lot of heavy truck traffic, and the percentage of the traffic on there is gonna be more trucks than really anything else. And the damage that you need to be considering future when you're doing your design.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because the rule of thumb is you know, one eighteen uh one eighteen wheeler is several thousand cars. And in those fast and fast growing areas, we do see a lot of the warehouses, uh, landscape supply, variety of things to support that additional population. That's where the that's where we see them. Yeah. So what about and so one last thing on traffic? We also need to know how many lanes we're gonna build. You know, widening is a big deal. I mean, are we trying to just re-establish what we have there, or do we need to you know add a lane and how do we do that? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's a great point. You know, and so along those lines, then the other considerations that I think when we're talking about you know comprehensive project development is the you know, the surveying and drainage. Drainage is so important, and utilities and right-of-way constraints and those type of things, you know. What are you doing?
SPEAKER_01So all all of those things will uh will feed into the bid package. Um, you know, number of driveways and intersections that will feed into how much hand work we have, how do we accommodate those? Um, you know, what what lane markings, number stop signs, all of those things will really, really feed into it. And then uh one we also see um is you know, are we doing like a sheep flow sideways across the pavement, or do we want to put a clown in it? And once you mill that off, it's really hard to tell unless you collect that data beforehand and have a clear plan of what we need to rebuild. Now, as far as drainage goes, you know, do we have a do we have a ditch? How are we going to handle the edge of the pavement? Um is that is that ditch edge in good shape, or we have a curb and gutter we need to match into. So there's a lot of things to consider when we're we're designed how do we how do we connect all those transition points.
SPEAKER_00Right. And you know, on rehab projects, the drainage is so critical because if you had poor drainage features prior, and then you're coming in and saying, okay, we're gonna mill and overlay this roadway, well, the some of the problems that that roadway had and why it may not have lasted as long as it was supposed to was because you had poor drainage, or like you talk about you know, borrow ditches and things like that that we see a lot in this state that get clogged up, um, or if you've got culverts and things like that that aren't functioning properly, if you're not addressing those, but you're gonna go in and spend the money and the time to rebuild or to resurface a roadway, or you know, you you could end up having the same problem, and it doesn't wait a long time to show up. You know, you've got a pavement design that's supposed to last a good while, you know, a 20-year pavement design, and you're like two year two, year three into it, you're starting to see cracking, you're starting to see a lot of distresses that are like, well, we just we just built this brand new asphalt road, and look, it's not even lasting.
SPEAKER_01And it's like, well, we didn't solve the problem we should have seen. And that goes back to you know why we want to collect the data, to take a look at it, to see uh so we can know what problems we're trying to solve uh before we get out there. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, that's that's all that's all uh good information for sure. I mean, the the taking the time to collect as much information as you can to forecast as best you can going forward of what what you're going to be seeing out there, what types of things you expect to see. Um I think that should be a part of I don't think it happens all the time, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_01What's your experience? It does. And a lot of times you're either um you have uh you know, all of that takes time to collect the data, and you may have uh different entities, um, you know, the uh the geotech may not be the surveyor, may not be the drainage, uh so they may have to handle different subconsultant schedules, uh, but really having that clear scope uh together to get the data there so we can have a successful project. Because the end of the day, we want to we want a long-lasting pavement, and all those all those pieces of information are critical in having a clear scope that we can go out and build. Yep. Yep.
SPEAKER_00I agree. Let's talk about design, you know, and the design considerations, right? So we've uh I mean I guess that's you we've we've we know what the traffic's going to be. We've done a good job of trying to figure out what we're doing. Yeah, we've collected the data that we need, exactly. And uh so now we're gonna take that data and that's gonna go into the design, but then there are design considerations that need to be uh to be considered as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so at that point, no, we we know what's there, we know what uh what we think we can reuse, we know what we're trying to achieve. And so at that point, a lot of it is uh some some math and some iterations to see uh, you know, uh do we need uh new material? Can we reuse the material that's there? And uh kind of looking at what thicknesses we need to handle that additional traffic. Um a lot of times we'll find that uh that structure may be sufficient, sometimes it may not be, and we'll need to do some things to add some structure to make it happen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, that's a good good point. And you know, of course, uh we've talked about it in the past, and in our industry we talk about it all the time, and that is selecting the proper mix types, um, using the right mix or the right application. I mean, uh that's obviously a huge part of the design.
SPEAKER_01It is, you know, as you work as you work your way from the the bottom to the top, you know, we gotta handle the subgrade, handle the base, and then um at the top you can uh you have a variety of mixes. Um we've uh talked before on this podcast about uh you know our dense graded mixes being the workhorse for a lot of things that we do, and and we can put those mixes in a base layer, uh intermediate or at the top. And so we have a lot of flexibility there um to uh to put the right layer with the right properties where we need it, uh whether that's gonna be a dense graded mix, uh, a super paved mix or something more robust at the top.
SPEAKER_00You know, one of the things the TechStot does a pretty good job of, although we we do uh I do know that a lot of our member producer contractors uh do wish that they would have a little bit more emphasis on it, and that is not a lot of times in a project it's not like um okay, the base is great, we don't have to do anything to it, or the base is shot, we've got to replace all of it. A lot of the times there are areas, and you know, of course, going back FWD and things like that will help pick that up, but then that needs to translate into the design part of this whole equation, right? That you, you know, you we're cities, counties, I mean, all agencies have pretty tight budgets when it comes to construction, reconstruction, maintenance, all those things. And you know, if we can accurately say we got this one mile project and we have base failure in 20% of it or something like that, um that ought to end up being somehow in that package, that bid package, that design that we are not completely redoing this base because we don't need to, but certain areas do need it. And I know, you know, I know with uh in your your previous life, I mean you you did a lot of this uh when you were uh when you were in the geotech and construction burials testing and payment design arena.
SPEAKER_01So how did you deal with that? So one of the biggest questions you have is it comes down to a factor of uh how much budget you have to deal with. And it it at some point the economics will work out that if you have uh a certain percentage of base repairs, it it'd probably be a better option to just reclaim that section uh just based on the efficiency of the equipment and how well to do that. And so that's always a decision to make. And then we also need to realize uh the timing between when we did the evaluation, when we collected the data, until we actually go to construction. If that's gonna be one year, two years, three years down the road, um, you know, the pavement deterioration will continue. So that's always something to consider on how accurate that number is. Because that's always uh that's it's always gonna be a a a big item when people are bidding the work or looking at the work or the guys in the field trying to execute the work are gonna have to adhere to.
SPEAKER_00No, you know what, that's a great point to you. Everything's a low bid, you know. I mean, we you know, if you we're we're bidding things, so contractors are gonna bid what is in the plans, and they're not going to bid, they're not gonna say, well, you have this in the plans, but let's go ahead and when we go out there and build it, let's just let's spend a lot more money and make it even better. They, you know, just by nature of how things are done, they they have to stick to those plans. And if there is a big difference in time and that deterioration continues, you know, they've got they've got quantities in that bid package that may be less than half of what is needed, but at the time of the design it was pretty accurate. So then you're in that, okay, do we get a change order, you know, or or do we just say, well, we're gonna do what's in the plans and fix those spots, and some new spots have popped up. So I think that's a that's a great point.
SPEAKER_01It's a very it's a challenge, especially when we uh put that that burden to execute that on on the field staff, either for the owner, the uh owner's reps, or the contractor to to deal with that situation. It's a lot better if we deal with it beforehand.
SPEAKER_00Well, I agree. Well, I think that's some pretty good information. What else do we got uh on this topic you want to talk about?
SPEAKER_01You know, there are some things. One of the nice things about an asphalt pavement is we can stage construction. We can do different things. Um, you can go into a neighborhood, do do you know your local repairs, your uh reclamation, whatever that's gonna be. And then you can come up with multiple lifts going up to where it'll all be uh kind of the the same age, the same lift at the end of the project. Uh that that's something that uh a lot of folks will do to uh to stage it in and and really end up with a nice looking job afterwards.
SPEAKER_00Let all the let all the uh heavy construction traffic and those types of things, and I know we've talked about this, talked about it before, but it's you know, it's definitely worth repeating that you know it's nice to be able to go, in a sense, do some proof rolling with construction traffic real time on an asphalt base that you're using, and then when you're done, you can find soft spots, go back and fix them, and you're knowing we're gonna come up with a nice smooth final surface that's kind of brand new, just like the subdivision is that people are moving into or the street is. Uh so that's uh yeah, that's a good point.
SPEAKER_01Another big one is the uh, you know, we talked about the survey and looking at you know, manholes, curves, ditches, and things like that. It's really how much uh how much transition work do we have? How many driveways are they gonna tie into? Is that outside lane? Are we gonna have to uh to do some uh some uh irregular things with our paving widths and and things to connect all those pieces? Those are always something that we want to have clearly noted in the plan so we can get some accurate bids and we don't expect someone to uh to execute something with some handwork that that wasn't really called out that way.
SPEAKER_00It makes the prepave go a lot better with those types of meetings that you have going up into the project. Exactly. So, Dennis, you've seen some of the podcasts, so you know we always wrap up the topic with our top ten reasons for having that topic. So let's start out on this one today, here, shall we? Top ten reasons we should develop and scope our project. Reason number 10. You want to make sure we didn't miss anything and that we're covering all the bases.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. We'd hate to get out there and realize we forgot something. Number nine, you need to make the best use of the existing pavement structure. It's there, let's use it.
SPEAKER_00Reason number eight, like all good plans, it must be developed beforehand, not like my 1984 spring break trip.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we've all been there. And uh reason number seven why we should develop and scope our project, you don't want to spend money where it's not needed or not helpful. You know, we've all been in the grocery store, you buy a bunch of stuff that you don't need, you don't want to do that.
SPEAKER_00Reason number six, a good plan will save time and budget.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Reason number five, a good plan will give you a higher quality and longer lasting pavement.
SPEAKER_00Reason number four, you gotta use the right materials and the right depth in the right location.
SPEAKER_01And reason number three, why we should develop and scope our project, you must know what you're paving over. You know, if we don't know what's down there, it may come back to haunt us later.
SPEAKER_00Reason number two, you got to know how much asphalt you need to buy for the project. A good thing to know before you get going.
SPEAKER_01And reason number one on why we should develop and scope our project, you want to make sure that you don't have to do this twice and we pay it forward and we have a long-lasting uh good quality performing asphalt pavement. Amen. So, Dennis, why don't you tell us about our project of the month? Our project of the month is Harden Store Road in Montgomery County. It's a uh fast-paced, high-growing uh area with lots of traffic and new neighborhoods and new facilities going in. Uh great asphalt project, uh, a little over four miles, and it's part of their 2025 bond program. And it's uh just a great project to see.
SPEAKER_00You know, Montgomery County is doing a lot of really good work up there. I know our members in the Houston area love working up there. I think they have a good uh good rapport with everybody, and uh so it sounds like a great project.
SPEAKER_01Great project to highlight. And uh hope you enjoyed today's episode. I'd like to point you to a couple resources on the uh TechSappa website, uh Texasasphalt.org. We have a local agency hub with a lot of uh materials and information regarding this topic. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Roadmaps. And remember, stay flexible.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Roadmaps. If you enjoyed the episode, feel free to like and subscribe and follow us on our social media channels, the Texas Asphalt Payment Association.
SPEAKER_01Stay flexible, and we'll see you next time.